John Douglas in Conversation with Chris Hansen
All Crime Con coverage comes with Trigger Warnings.
The second speaker I saw was not only a highlight of CrimeCon, but of my life. John Douglas, the original Mindhunter—one of the founders, with his partner Bob Ressler, of the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit (now the Behavioral Analysis Unit which has multiple units for specific crimes). Celebrity host Chris Hansen himself received resounding applause.
John Douglas has had a career that kept moving. He had time as a sniper and hostage negotiator, but psychology had always been a side interest. I think everyone expected some recapping of this fascinating career that led to the FBI creating a unit for studying psychology of serial killers. I don’t remember if any time for Q&A was left in this presentation, because I specifically remember it being said that Douglas wanted to save up special information for his more exclusive ticketed event that night. (I didn’t have tickets and knew I’d be tired).
When the BSU was founded, one of the primary objectives was to manage the vernacular about the people and behaviors being studied. At the time, it was more focused on the murderers and rapists than on the victims (that came later when Dr. Ann Wolpert-Burgess joined the team through her connection as a sexual assault trauma counselor).
The FBI instructors had been teaching recruits about killers they never personally interviewed. Douglas and Ressler thought it was worth a shot to approach these incarcerated criminals and ask them why they did what they did. It was during that time with Douglas and Ressler on the road that Burgess and Roy Hazelton came on board. As the team studied their subjects, they began to see patterns.
In television and movies, the killer often goes to the funeral or returns to the scene of the crime. The feds had the brilliant (probably controversial) idea of adding listening devices to headstones at graves. Douglas admitted they got good information from doing that.
If you’re also wondering about the Netflix series based on this team and specifically on Douglas’ book, Mindhunter, he didn’t exactly give it a thumbs-up. He was disappointed that the show’s writer never once spoke to him. He said a lot of things were incorrect in the show. However, he did like the actors on the show. If you’ve seen presentations or read the latest book by Dr. Burgess, she always points out that the show took some liberties. The first woman in the unit is only loosely based on her. She also has reminded audiences that she’s not a lesbian like the character on the show.
One thing both Douglas and Burgess have said in their presentations is that serial killer, Ed Kemper, loved to talk. If you’ve learned of Kemper’s particularly sadistic ways, you can understand why some of these discussions were given trigger warnings.
I was surprised that John Douglas questioned the theory of nature versus nurture when it came to Ed Kemper. In interviews found on YouTube1, he said Kemper became a sadistic serial killer because of his upbringing. In person and not long since retired, Douglas is extremely compassionate, and at times, jaunty.
Douglas discussed the highly maligned actions of the FBI and ATF which occurred at the Waco religious compound run by David Koresh called the Branch Davidians. According to John Douglas, it was a “shitshow.” He said he and Janet Reno2 were forced to leave before the buildings were breached, but she had to give the order as it came down.
Retired FBI agents can be surprising people. I’d say getting know John Douglas was full of unexpected stories.
“It’s not an interview. It’s not an interrogation. It’s a conversation.”
He wrapped up by talking about two cases that still impact him. The murder of JonBenet Ramsay (her father was also a guest of CrimeCon); and the Amanda Knox case. Douglas emphasized as best as he could to large audience of true crime fans, that you cannot judge how people look when the cameras are on. When the “Court of Public Opinion” sees parents like the Ramsays not crying; or even daring to smile because someone said something nice to them; the media edits what the public sees. He’s seen John Ramsay crying when the cameras weren’t there. It’s been known for many years because of DNA evidence that no one in the Ramsay family killed JonBenet. Amanda Knox, who was wrongfully convicted of murder in Italy, is now getting her life back as a podcaster, public speaker, and author.
There’s a 2008 documentary, Mindhunter3, which John Douglas starred in gave him more control over the narrative than the fictionalized-based-on-true-stories, Mindhunters from Netflix.
John Douglas and others in the FBI distanced themselves from Dr. Ann Wolpert-Burgess after she testified on behalf of the Menendez brothers (convicted for the murders of their parents). If Douglas stands by his words that it’s vital to close cases based on facts not the public’s opinion, it feels unsettling. If you don’t know, the brothers were raped by their father their entire lives while their mother never tried to intervene (that could be what used to be called Battered Woman Syndrome even if she wasn’t physically assaulted by her husband; or, she knew and made the choice not to do anything).
John Douglas’ books:
Mindhunter: Inside the FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit by John Douglas & Mark Olshaker
The Killer Across the Table: Unlocking the Secrets of Serial Killers and Predators with the FBI’s Original Mindhunter by John Douglas & Mark Olshaker
The Cases That Haunt Us by John Douglas & Mark Olshaker
Law & Disorder: Inside the Dark Heart of Murder with the FBI’s Legendary Mindhunter by John Douglas & Mark Olshaker
Inside the Mind of BTK: The True Story Behind the Thirty-Year Hunt for the Notorious Wichita Serial Killer by John Douglas
Journey into Darkness by John Douglas & Mark Olshaker
The Anatomy of Motive by John Douglas & Mark Olshaker
Obsession: The FBI’s Legendary Profiler Probes the Psyches of Killers, Rapists, and Stalkers, and Their Victims and Tells How to Fight Back by John Douglas, Mark Olshaker
Anyone You Want Me to Be: A True Story of Sex and Death on the Internet by John Douglas & Stephen Singular
Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives by John Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, & Robert K. Ressler
Other Sources:
1 “The Minds Behind Mindhunter” held at Boston College
2 “Who Was Janet Reno?” at Biography.com
3 “Mindhunter” (2008) – Joseph Kondro, Donald Harvey